Perspective Part 4B - What Constitutes Church Doctrine?

What is Doctrine? Meaning what are the authoritative teachings or beliefs of the LDS Church?

Michael Ash in Shaken Faith Syndrome (pg. 31 and 45) states:

"What, then, is official doctrine and what is opinion? Official doctrine will be announced as revelation and the body of the Church will sustain it (D&C 26:2, 107:27-31)."

"I believe that very few LDS teachings qualify as true doctrines...Sometimes we conflate the implementation or presentation of a doctrine with the doctrine itself."

(D&C 26:2--"And all things shall be done by common consent in the church, by much prayer and faith, for all things you shall receive by faith. Amen.)

(D&C 107:27 & 32--"And every decision made by either of these quorums [First Presidency, Twelve Apostles, Seventy] must be by the unanimous voice of the same; that is, every member in each quorum must be agreed to its decisions, in order to make their decisions of the same power or validity one with the other…(32) And in case that any decision of these quorums is made in unrighteousness, it may be brought before a general assembly of the several quorums, which constitute the spiritual authorities of the church; otherwise there can be no appeal from their decision.")

The Givens see prophets and scripture as fallible. Scripture is the prophet's attempt to understand and express the divine.


What the LDS Church Says:

"Approaching Mormon Doctrine," LDS Newsroom (2007):

"Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted."

I generally agree with this statement. It warns us about the use of single statements and reading in context. However, if the single statement is stated under the influence of the Holy Ghost then it is usable for doctrine (see below)?

I would change "often" to "may" in the sentence "A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often may represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church" (bold added). Note that "leader" must refer to a past or current prophet or apostle because they are the only ones who can receive revelation for the "whole church."

Scripture:
Apostles and prophets can speak under the influence of the Holy Ghost which is scripture, just like the Bible.  Is that not "binding for the whole Church"?

"Scripture," Bible Dictionary (Bold added):

"The word scripture means 'a writing' and is used to denote a writing recognized by the Church as sacred and inspired. It is so applied to the books of the Old Testament by the writers of the New Testament (Matt. 22:29; John 5:39; 2 Tim. 3:15). For an account of the process by which the books of the Old Testament and New Testament came to be recognized as scripture, see Canon. Latter-day revelation identifies scripture as that which is spoken under the influence of the Holy Ghost (D&C 68:1–4)."

(D&C 68:1–4--"And this is the ensample unto them, that they shall speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost. (4) And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation.")

(Canon: "A word of Greek origin, originally meaning “a rod for testing straightness,” now used to denote the authoritative collection of the sacred books used by the true believers in Christ. In The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the canonical books are called standard works [Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price].)

Likewise, we are told to follow the teaching of the prophets:

"Prophets" in True to the Faith (2004) (Bold added):

You can always trust the living prophets. Their teachings reflect the will of the Lord, who declared: “What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same” (D&C 1:38). 

Your greatest safety lies in strictly following the word of the Lord given through His prophets, particularly the current President of the Church. The Lord warns that those who ignore the words of the living prophets will fall (see D&C 1:14–16). 

“Stand Ye in Holy Places,” President Harold B. Lee (1973) (Bold added):

“If you want to know what the Lord has for this people at the present time, I would admonish you to get and read the discourses that have been delivered at this [general] conference; for what these brethren have spoken by the power of the Holy Ghost is the mind of the Lord, the will of the Lord, the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation.” 

So Let Me Get This Straight:
We are to "strictly follow" the words of the prophets BUT they are technically not doctrine (which is "binding for the whole Church") because it is not "established" by the First Presidency and the Twelve Apostles and "consistently proclaimed in official Church publications" (Bold added). No wonder TBMs are confused on what is Church Doctrine.


The Journal of Discourses
The Journal of Discourses represents an issue of an LDS Apologist.  It apparently contains numerous quotes that are not consistent with current Church doctrine or teachings of recent prophets. This is why LDS Apologists like to define Church doctrine as "resid[ing] in the four 'standard works' of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith." Everything else is just opinions--not official teaching or doctrine.

The Church's opinion of the Journal of Discourses is

"The Journal of Discourses includes interesting and insightful teachings by early Church leaders; however, by itself it is not an authoritative source of Church doctrine."

"I’ve been reading the Journal of Discourses with a great deal of interest and pleasure, but I notice that they are not printed by the Church. Can you tell me how authoritative I should consider them to be?", Ensign, August 1878:

We also should be aware of priorities in our studies. It seems to me that we should first become very familiar with the four books of Scripture accepted as standard works. The words of our current living prophet are also most valuable for us in our time. The official statements of the First Presidency are standards for doctrine and practice in the Church. We should be familiar with the manuals and courses of study provided for us in our day. For further inspiration and instruction by the General Authorities, we can study general conference addresses, beginning with the most current and moving back in time.

The Church is obviously trying to distance themselves from the Journal of Discourses. However, if you search "Journal of Discourses" on LDS.org you will get many hits to general conference addresses, magazines articles, and manual lessons.  Apparently, use the Journal of Discourses if it agrees with you. If it does not, then say it's not authoritative.

Perspective Part 4A - Just How Fallible are Prophets

In Part 1 of Perspective, the 4 fundamental elements of the faithful Mormon perspective are (see Mormon Expressions Episode 7X starting at 20:42):

1. The Church is true.
2. Joseph Smith was a prophet.
3. Thomas S. Monson [or current Church President] is a prophet today.
4. The Book of Mormon is true.

Further,  Conservative Mormons or True Believing Mormons (TBM) believe items 1 through 4. They believe what the First Presidency and 12 Apostles do and say is from God. They believe their local leaders are inspired. They believe there are reasonable explanations for any critical (anti-Mormon) claims. They usually don't investigate critical claims because of their testimony in items 1 through 4. They take prophets, the scriptures, and gospel principles literally.


Fallilbility of Prophets (0 [none] to 10 [completely]):
TBMs: 0 or 1
Michael Ash: 3
The Givens: 5 to 7


(Note: if you don't think TBMs believe the below, then these are my beliefs as a TBM and my observations of Church members for over 30 years.)

TBMs See Their Leaders as Inspired:
As John Dehlin stated and most TBMs would agree, "the Church is predominately divine and occasionally marred by the flaws of men." This means the Bishop and Stake President are good men who are inspired. For example, when my Bishop prayed to know who the new Elder's Quorum President should be, God impressed on his mind the name of the person. Further, God may impress upon his mind a message that the Ward needs to hear. The same is true for the Stake President on the Stake level of organization.

Now the President of the Church, the Prophet, is sustained as a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator. Meaning God speaks to him and directs the Church through him. He is not leading the Church, God is. Likewise, the First Presidency and 12 Apostles are sustained as a Prophets, Seers, and Revelators. God speaks to them and directs the Church is their area of responsibility.

When I was Sunday School President, I would pray for inspiration when I had to call a new teacher. I receive a prompting and would recommend that name to the Bishop. Often, the Bishop would recommend someone else and I would go along with the Bishop's recommendation.  I always thought I could not tell the difference between my own feelings and the inspiration.  Because he was the Bishop and a good man, I knew the Bishop could better discern inspiration. Likewise, the Stake President was probably better at spiritual discernment than the Bishop. Yes, does means the Bishop might mistake his feelings for inspiration, but most of the callings, especially the Leadership callings, were inspired of God.

For those sustained as Prophets, Seers, and Revelators, TBMs know they can tell the difference between their feelings and inspiration.  I figured they had inspired dreams, maybe visions, etc. They are in more direct and more frequent contact with God. Most TBMs, I think, would not flinch if you told them that all the Apostles have seen Jesus Christ. I thought this is what was meant when an Apostle bore their special witness of Christ. What else could it mean?

TBMs Know Their Leaders Aren't Perfect:
Of course the Leaders are just men. They still sin. But as you move up the "food chain," the sins are less severe and less frequent. For example, the average TBM Ward leader (like Elder's Quorum President) might swear a bit, watch football on Sunday, and lose his temper with his wife and children.  The Bishop might swear in this mind, doesn't watch football on Sunday (he's in too many meetings), and might occasionally raise his voice at home.

TBMs see Prophets, Seers, and Revelators as holy men. We know that they are not perfect. But their sins are small. If they are not holy, then they would not be worthy to always have the Holy Ghost to be with them to lead the Church.


How infallible are Prophets (Church Sources):
TBMs see the Prophets, Seers, and Revelators as predominately infallible when speaking of Church matters. When they talk about a beloved sports team, their favorite restaurant, etc. those are personal views. But when they talk "Church," especially when giving a talk or delivering a message, their words are authoritative because God leads the Church through them. This does not mean that everything they say is 100% factual. They might get a date wrong, misquoted a scripture, etc. But the essence of the message is correct.

Church Publications:
There's what Church publications have about Prophets and following them:

"Prophets" in True to the Faith (2004):

You can always trust the living prophets. Their teachings reflect the will of the Lord, who declared: “What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same” (D&C 1:38). 

Your greatest safety lies in strictly following the word of the Lord given through His prophets, particularly the current President of the Church. The Lord warns that those who ignore the words of the living prophets will fall (see D&C 1:14–16).

"Chapter 9: Prophets of God" in Gospel Principles (2011):
(Note: The same text with minor changes, mostly in the quotations, is in the 1997 Gospel Principles)

We should do those things the prophets tell us to do. President Wilford Woodruff said that a prophet will never be allowed to lead the Church astray: 

“The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Wilford Woodruff [2004], 199)… 

We should follow his inspired teachings completely. We should not choose to follow part of his inspired counsel and discard that which is unpleasant or difficult. The Lord commanded us to follow the inspired teachings of His prophet: 

“Thou shalt give heed unto all his [the prophet’s] words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me; 

“For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith” (D&C 21:4–5).

"Lesson 13: Follow the Brethren" in The Latter-day Saint Woman: Basic Manual for Women: Part B (2000):

It is a blessing to be members of the true Church and to know that our prophet speaks the will of the Lord for today. Knowing that the Lord speaks through His prophet reassures us that the Savior lives and that He loves us and is interested in us. 

The prophet who leads the Church will never lead us astray. He tells us things that pertain to our lives now. The prophet gives us instruction from the Lord at general conference, which is held twice each year. He also gives the Lord’s counsel to us at other conferences held throughout the world. Many of the prophet’s addresses are printed in the Church magazines. 

In addition to the President of the Church, other men are sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators. These are the prophet’s counselors and the Quorum of the Twelve. These Brethren also receive revelation, bring us the will of the Lord, bear witness of the divinity of Christ, teach the plan of salvation, and perform ordinances. 

President Harold B. Lee said: “If you want to know what the Lord has for this people at the present time, I would admonish you to get and read the discourses that have been delivered at this [general] conference; for what these brethren have spoken by the power of the Holy Ghost is the mind of the Lord, the will of the Lord, the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1973, 176; or Ensign, July 1973, 121)… 

The prophet and other General Authorities preside over all units of the Church. However, since they cannot personally conduct the affairs of all units, they have delegated the right to preside and conduct to others. The Lord calls worthy priesthood bearers to act under the leadership of the General Authorities in our local areas. These local leaders are called by revelation to lead in righteousness. Although they may not feel they are fully prepared or trained for their leadership calls, the Lord has chosen them to lead at this time, and He will magnify their abilities to perform their callings… 

“The men who hold the Priesthood are but mortal men; they are fallible men."… 

“And those who lift their voices … against the authority of the Holy Priesthood … will go down to hell, unless they repent” (George Q. Cannon, Gospel Truth, sel. Jerreld L. Newquist, 2nd ed., 2 vols. [1974], 1:276).

The message from the above 3 quotes:
You can "trust" the prophets. Their teachings are "inspired" and "reflect the will of the Lord." You should "completely" follow the prophets; they will never "lead you astray."  Those who don't follow the prophets "will go down to hell unless they repent."

The last quote does say the leaders are "mortal" and "fallible" but precede it with how they are "called by revelation to lead in righteousness" and immediately follow it with a warning of speaking out against them.

LDS.org Search:
Next, I search for "infallible" and "fallible" on lds.org and here are the results I found (ordered by date):

History of the Church, 5:181:

"I was but a man," Joseph told the Saints in 1842, "and they must not expect me to be perfect; if they expected perfection from me, I should expect it from them; but if they would bear with my infirmities and the infirmities of the brethren, I would likewise bear with their infirmities."

Comments: this only tells us that he (Joseph) was not perfect.

President Cannon, as quoted by Spencer W. Kimball, 1972:

“The men who hold the Priesthood are but mortal men: they are fallible men. … [No one knows that better than they themselves.] No human being that ever trod this earth was free from sin, excepting the Son of God. …”

Comments: passage relates falliblity with being mortal and sinning. 

Mark E. Petersen, Apostle, 1978:

“When I speak as a man it is Joseph only that speaks. But when the Lord speaks through me, it is no longer Joseph Smith who speaks; but it is God, and let all Israel hear.” (Edward Stevenson, as quoted in Hyrum L. Andrus and Helen Mae Andrus, comp., They Knew the Prophet (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1974), 84.)

Comments: A Prophet can speak as a man or as a prophet.  

M. Russell Ballard, 1993:

"we know that the Church is made up of mortals, that priesthood leaders are fallible, and some may not always handle their stewardships with suitable sensitivity."

Comments: Again the passage relates falliblity with being mortal.

Henry B. Eyring, 2004:

"And that depends upon our testimony that Jesus is the Christ and that He lives and leads His Church. We must also know for ourselves that the Lord restored His Church and the priesthood keys through the Prophet Joseph Smith. And we must have an assurance through the Holy Ghost, refreshed often, that those keys have been passed without interruption to the living prophet and that the Lord blesses and directs His people through the line of priesthood keys which reaches down through presidents of stakes and of districts and through bishops and branch presidents to us, wherever we are and no matter how far from the prophet and the apostles. 

That is not easy today. It was not easy in the days of Paul. It has always been hard to recognize in fallible human beings the authorized servants of God. Paul must have seemed an ordinary man to many. Joseph Smith’s cheerful disposition was seen by some as not fitting their expectations for a prophet of God."

Comments: Again falliblity is related to the human (mortal) condition. It may hard to recognize "authorized servants of God" in "ordinary" men.

Elder M. Russell Ballard, 2015:

"During my nearly 40 years of close association, I have been a personal witness as both quiet inspiration and profound revelation have moved to action the prophets and apostles, the other General Authorities, and the auxiliary leaders. While neither perfect nor infallible, these good men and women have been perfectly dedicated to leading the work of the Lord forward as He has directed."

Comments: Leaders moved by inspiration and revelation, but they are not perfect nor infallible.  

Conclusion:
Fallibility is these passages is about the human condition of being mortal.  We all make mistakes. We all sin. They say nothing about leaders making errors in teaching or leading the Church.  The last two quotes by Eyring and Ballard say the Lord is directing the Church ("the Lord blesses and directs His people through the line of priesthood keys which reaches down" to Stake Presidents and Bishops; "quiet inspiration and profound revelation have moved to action the prophets and apostles") and that the leaders are not perfect (fallible in a mortal sense).


How infallible are Prophets (Per Michael Ash and the Givens):
Michael Ash and the Givens claim that Prophets are Fallible in that:

• They may teach incorrect teachings.
• They are not morally perfect.

I don't expect any man to be morally perfect.  We all sin. But I do expect a prophet to be a holy man, a man of virtue.  I don't see a prophet being a liar, a thief, an adulterer, etc.  

In the beginning of Chapter 3, "Unrealistic Expectations of Prophets," of Shaken Faith Syndrome (Second Edition [2013], pg. 29), Michael Ash has several quotes about prophets being fallible:

•  "'I make no claim of infallibility,' said Spencer W. Kimball."
• "'We make no claim of infallibility or perfection in the prophets, seers, and revelators,' said Elder James E. Faust"
• "Elder George Q. Cannon taught, "The First Presidency cannot claim, individually or collectively, infallibility."

Here are the quotes in context:

"I make no claim of infallibility"by Spencer W. Kimball:

"His [ Joseph Fielding Smith] voice becomes the voice of God to reveal new programs, new truths, new solutions. I make no claim of infallibility for him, but he does need to be recognized of God, an authoritative person."

Comment: Spencer W. Kimball was not claiming infallibility but made no claim for Joseph Fielding Smith, who was just sustained as President of the Church, being infallible. This is the only statement at seems to support Ash's claim.

"We make no claim of infallibility or perfection in the prophets, seers, and revelators." by Elder James E. Faust:

"We make no claim of infallibility or perfection in the prophets, seers, and revelators. Yet I humbly state that I have sat in the company of these men, and I believe their greatest desire is to know and do the will of our Heavenly Father. Those who sit in the highest councils of this church and have participated as inspiration has come and decisions have been reached know that this light and truth is beyond human intelligence and reasoning. These deep, divine impressions have come as the dews from heaven and settled upon them individually and collectively. So inspired, we can go forward in complete unity and accord. 

I witness humbly that I know the Lord still guides his church through his servants, regardless of any individual imperfections. I pray that we may be responsive to his Spirit and be found listening to the oracles he has appointed. I so pray because I know that we mortals, without the aid of revelation, cannot know the purposes of God."

Comments: A statement that the prophets are fallible, but the message is that God inspires them and leads the Church.

"The First Presidency cannot claim, individually or collectively, infallibility." by Elder George Q. Cannon:

"President Woodruff is distinguished from every other one of us by the fact that he possesses the keys of the kingdom on the earth. He represents the Supreme authority. His voice to us, in its place, brings to us the voice of God. Not that he is God; not that he is infallible. He is a fallible man. His Counselors are fallible men. The First Presidency cannot claim, individually or collectively, infallibility. Infallibility is not given to men. They are fallible. But God is infallible. And when God speaks to the Church through him who holds the keys, it is the word of the Lord to this people."

Comments: A statement that the prophet and his Counselors are fallible, but that God speaks through him and God is infallible. To me, this says exactly the opposite of what Ash claims.  Here men, the First Presidency, are fallible, and God who is infallible speaks to the Prophet.

 Putting It All Together:
The Church teaches that we can trust and need to completely follow the prophets because they will not "lead you astray." Fallibility of prophets and other leaders from Church sources is more about the human condition of being mortal. Humans make mistakes and sin. Church sources say nothing about prophets and leaders making errors (being fallible) in teachings or in leading the Church.

Michael Ash and the Givens need to have the prophets fallible in teaching and in leading the Church to explain some Church History and Doctrine like the Priesthood Ban for Blacks, Adam-God doctrine, etc.

The problem is: if they are correct, then what other wrong teachings, policies, etc. exist in the Church? How can this be the True Church if it contains error? Further, if a prophet teaches an incorrect teaching (say for sake of argument the recent LBGT child naming and baptism policy) do I go along with a false teaching (risking God's displeasure) or voice my concerns (risking Church discipline and possible excommunication)?

Ash answers that a prophet is here to lead us to Christ: "belief in Christ, repentance, baptism, gift of the Holy Spirit, enduring to the end, and being found spotless at the final judgment" (Shaken Faith Syndrome, pg. 29).  The Givens say the Church has the Priesthood to do the saving ordinances. Ash and the Givens see the prophets as fallible in teaching and leadership to different degrees. As you can see, this is a liberal (and potentially dangerous) view to a TBM.

The Church will never accept fallibility in teachings and leadership because members will start to question their leaders which may cause division or loss of faith.

Perspective Part 3A - Letter to a Doubter Notes

The Letter to a Doubter (FAIR Podcast) (PDF) was the basis of "The Crucible of Doubt: Reflections on the Quest For Faith," a book by LDS-faithful Terryl and Fiona Givens. Here are my notes from the FAIR Podcast:

Letter to a Doubter:
Our doubt might be the result of false assumptions. For example, B. H. Roberts, a Seventy in the early twentieth century, wrestled with the question how did the numerous Indian languages develop in about a thousand years if the Lamanites were speaking Reformed Egyptian in 400 AD.  He assumed the hemispheric model for Book of Mormon--the land northward is North America and the land southward is South America.  He also assumed the Nephites and Lamanites were the only people.  Current LDS scholarship favors a limited geography (about 500 by 200 miles) and other inhabitants in North and South America. Under this model, the Lamanites were absorbed (linguistically, culturally, and genetically) into the dominate population.

There are 5 basic false assumptions:

1. The Prophetic Mantel

• Biblical prophets were not perfect (examples cited).
• Modern prophets are not infallible examples of virtue and perfection.
• Joseph Smith, "I don't want you to think that I am very righteous for I am not very righteous."
• God calls the "weak vessels" so that we faith in God and not the prophets natural abilities.
• The prophet will not lead us astray means the prophet will not teach us any soul destroying doctrine not that they'll never error.
• A prophet means they have the priesthood keys, not infallibility or righteousness.

2. Nature of the Restoration

• For the D&C: the Restoration means God is bringing the church back out of the wilderness.
• The Priesthood was lost and the truth was scattered.
• Joseph Smith brought it back into a coherent whole.

3. Mormon Exclusivity

• Joseph Smith had a Universalist view.
• Mormons don't have a monopoly on truth, righteousness, or God's approbation.

4. Efficacy of Institutional Religion

• Holiness is found it how we treat others.
• Relationships wear away our rough edges.
• The LDS perspective is that heaven has the same sociality.
• There are no Zion individuals, only a Zion community.

5. Satisfactions of the Gospel

• Discipleship is not always joyous.
• Spiritual peaks and valleys allow us to go from God's servant to God's son.

Perspective Part 3 - The Crucible of Doubt by Terryl and Fiona Givens

"The Crucible of Doubt: Reflections on the Quest For Faith" is a book by LDS-faithful Terryl and Fiona Givens. The book is about perspective and is geared for those who wish to remain in the Church. You can get an overview of the book from:

Mormon Stories Episode 496 (Aug 2014)
Book Review by Julie Smith (Aug 2014)
FAIR Podcast (Sept 2014)

Here are my notes from Mormon Stories Episode 496 (Aug 2014):

Introduction (starting at 35:10):

• What kind of changes can we make to remain in the Church.
• There is little we can do to alter the Church, its history, etc.

Ch1. Reason (starting at 36:20):

• Few decisions we make rely solely on reason.
• Skeptics say--and they're right--that only science can lead to truth.
• Many people feel there is something transcendent.
• We need to use reason and emotion to make decisions.
• Gospel truths add beauty to life.

Ch 2. Role of Life's Incompletion (starting at 44:30):

• We turn to religion, as an opiate, to answer all our questions. We want a map, but we get a compass.
• Faith is not an electric blanket; it's a cross.

Ch 3. Role of the Church (starting at 49:50):

• The question for doubters is: should we remain?
• The Church offers a geographic COMMUNITY modeled on the family.
• The Church offers ORDINANCES because the (Mormon) heaven is relationship based and the ordinances form relationships (Note: the Protestant view is that heaven is moral requirement based)
• We go expecting to receive. (And if we do, we'll be disappointed) What do we bring to the alter of God.

Ch 4. Use and Abuse of Scripture (starting at 55:80):

• There are inconsistencies in scripture.
• The Book of Mormon had editors: the author of each book and a final editor, Mormon.
• We tend to take the scriptures literally, but they probably should not be taken so literally (at 58:28).
• The scriptures are fallible (at 1:00:14). We must read with discernment (and not with textual criticism).
• John: Most Mormons would view the Church as predominately divine and occasionally marred by the flaws of men. But the Church is mortal and is man's attempt at understand the divine.
• John: Most Mormons view the scriptures as truth and the First Presidency as "good" meaning authoritative or just below scripture.
• John: scripture is the author's best attempt to understand God.
• Terryl agreed with John on above three items.  The Joseph Smith Papers shows editing of revelation to understand God.  Joseph Smith seeks greater understanding demonstrating honesty, not deception.
• Joseph Smith was only a prophet when he spoke as a prophet. "Some revelations were of God, [some of men], and some of the Devil." (at 1:05:50)
• Scripture is fallible because men are fallible.
• John: We are trying to discern God's will imperfectly.
• Fiona: Agrees with John that revelation was collaborative.

Ch 5. Perils of Hero Worship (starting at 1:09:45):

• Humans have a need to create heroes, something to worship.
• Heroes (prophets) release us from responsibility.
• In at ecclesiastical sense, they (prophets) are men.
• Heroes have feet of clay.
• Brigham Young quote: afraid we will blindly follow the church leaders.
• Church leaders are fallible.
• Temple Oath: can't be vocal critics of the leaders.
• John: has not the Church fostered hero worship and is it wrong to criticize?
• Fiona: our leaders should point us to Christ. Church culture promotes hero worship.
• Terryl: The Brethren should present their human side.
• Fiona: There seems to be a chasm between us and the Brethren, but they are not historians and they were raised on the same manuals.
• Terryl: The leaders make mistakes. We need to lower our expectation of the infallibility of  prophetic direction (at 1:24:15).
• Okay to express constructive criticism of leaders, no venting.

Ch 6. Ring of Pharaoh (starting at 1:28:55):

• The chapter is a continuation of chapter 5.
• Not every calling is inspired.
• Delegating means God gave the authority to make decisions. But not every decision is in line with the Lord's will.
• We should sustain (follow) our leaders unless asked to do something wrong or against our conscience.
• John: No blind obedience?
• Terryl: Correct. We need to determine of it's the mind and will of God or not.
• For the Priesthood Ban (of Blacks), time proved some to be right. Others will bear the burden of blind obedience.
• We need to be true to our conscious first and then to an institution. 
• If you go contrary to the leaders (and are right), the God will alchemize any suffering.

Ch 7. Of Mormons and Monopolies (starting at 1:39:55):

• John: the Church is a Universalistic Church
• The Church doesn't have a monopoly on truth.
• God's favoritism of "We are the only true church" has negative connotation with others.
• There are many Godly people around the world.
• D&C 10:52 shows the Church is not the institutional Church but the Universal Church
• John: "We're the best and others have some truth" needs to be "no one can say we're better."
• There needs to be a shift from the Church has the truth to the Church has the temple ordinance, the portal to salvation (at 1:45:22).
• The Church has the priesthood keys and ordinances but not superior status to other traditions.

Ch 8. Finding Your Watering Hole (starting at 1:45:50):

• Don't expect to return from Church replenished and with new knowledge. You need to find a source independent of the Church structure (called "Supplementing"). The source (music, literature, etc.) need not be from the Church. 
• Joseph Smith read from various sources.
• The Church is a community, a source to provide service, a source to access the ordinances.
• We find in our homes the time to study that which inspires us and reveals our discipleship path.

Ch 9. [Skipped]


Ch 10. Silence and Solitude (starting at 1:49: 40):

• It's OK to feel like the heavens are closed, especially in times of need.
• Mormons  are told if they ask God, he will answer.
• God reaches out to us in different ways. We should not tell God how to answer.

Fiona quoted this statement from George McDonald:

[Even] If there is no hereafter, I would live my life believing in a grand thing that ought to be true if it were not. No facts can take the place of truths; and if these be not truths, then it is the loftiest part of our nature a waste.  Let me hold by the better than the actual, and fall into nothingness off the same precipice with Jesus and John and Paul and a thousand more, who were lovely in their lives, and with their death make even the nothingness into which they have passed like the garden of the Lord.  I will go farther, and say I would rather die forevermore believing as Jesus believed, than live forevermore believing as those who deny him.

I evaluate The Crucible of Doubt in Perspective Part 4.